Does Premier crystal sync the still frames you capture?

[Vespasian]

I was wondering after you have all of your frames captured on premire, can all of your footage be played back at exactly 24 fps? If you have a crystal camera and recorder. Can the footage be played at 24 fps to sync perfectly without any speed control done to the sound.

I also wanted to know if I had a crystal recorder as apposed to a minidisc reocrder would this make the jod of syncing the footage with the sound alot easier on Premier or not really? Could someone who has Premier tell me more about this software? I hear that you can not make really fine adjustments to your captured frames or the audio. So wouldn't crystal sync be neccassary?

[rollemfilm]

there are always ways to fudge things. crystal sync gear is out there for a reason. because it works. it's a hard fact, but true. for good sync sound you need a crystal sync camera and at least a digital recorder. although, you may be able to use a basic VCR, as long as it has TBC.

[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by rollemfilm:
you may be able to use a basic VCR, as long as it has TBC.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

A TBC will do nothing to ensure accurate sound synch on location or in the studio. Any modern composite color VCR, even a VHS with no TBC, will record sound that is as consistant in speed as the best Nagra. That's because the pulses recorded on the video deck are derived by a crystal controlled pulse generator, just like the pulses recorded on a Nagra. When a deck plays back, it compares the pulses on the tape to the crystal generated ones and resolves the speed to stay in synch. The same thing will happen on a self resolving Nagra.

A TBC has nothing to do with sound and merely cleans up the picture and restores the rate of the video frames so that they are consistant REGARDLESS of what the audio is doing. In fact, an infinite window TBC can actually introduce a delay in the picture so that the sound seems ahead. Also, if your deck is running free and its internal crystal is a bit "off" from broadcast speed, the TBC may very well introduce or drop frames that can throw off the frame count from beginning to end of a roll.

In short, if you record your audio in the field on video tape, it will work fine with any plain old color VCR, be it analog or digital. The speed will be off by .1% from 24fps but that's no big deal to fix in post. A TBC will do nothing to help the sound synch as it affects picture only.

[rollemfilm]

try recording audio only on an old vcr without TBC and let me know the results.

[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by rollemfilm:
try recording audio only on an old vcr without TBC and let me know the results.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do it all the time! (and you do to, probably) [img]smile.gif[/img]

A TBC does not regulate record or playback speed and will not affect audio.

Here is how a TBC works:

Let's say you have a tape that has faulty video frames/bad control track glitches and you feed it into your computer. The picture for those frames will be distorted. If the control track is REALLY messed up, you might even hear some "wow" in your audio. Now, if you feed that same video through a fullframe or infinite window TBC, it will grab the last usable frame and keep repeating it until the next usable frame comes along. On those "bad" frames, it will keep generating a freeze until things clear up. The audio, however, will still sound the same as it originally did because the TBC only processes the picture, not the sound. Further, if the glitch in the tape deck caused the sound to faulter to the point that it slowed for a split second, the audio synch (relative to your super 8 film) will be lost from that point on, even though the sound for the video will get back in synch as soon as the glitch goes away. Again, the TBC will keep generating a complete picture, even if only a still frame, during the glitch. That is why making copies through a TBC can actually throw off the frame count of a video dub in situtations where the original was severely off speed or had massive drop out.

Also, in reference to your statement:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
try recording audio only on an old vcr without TBC</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many decks will defaut to their own internal crystal as the source of the pulses if there is no video signal present but a TBC is not part of the process nor is it needed. More to the point, on decks that DO have a built in TBC (such as some Hi8mm, BetaSP and SVHS decks), the TBC is on the OUTPUT of the deck and not the input so, even then, you generally still need to feed the deck a video signal of some kind when recording and the TBC does not help you if one is not present. Indeed, the TBC relies on the presence of the video signal (during recording) to derive its own synch for proper display of the picture on the output.

If you are recording video on a VCR in the field, you DO need a video signal coming into the deck but that does not require a TBC; only a camera of some kind and any color camera will do the trick, even a cheapy color security camera. The video camera's self generating pulses will be recorded on the tape as a reference.


If you have a deck with a built in TBC that you've been successfully using to record audio and you haven't been feeding a video signal, I can assure you that the TBC has nothing to do with it since it's downstream from the recorded signal. Instead, the deck simply has defaulted to its own internal crystal source for the control track pulses.

On the other hand, if you've been using a video deck in the field and a separate TBC feeding into the input to establish a constant video signal, the TBC is doing nothing that any color video camera coudn't do in place of the TBC. So, again, a TBC is not needed to record audio in the field on a video deck.

Roger

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 14, 2002 08:07 AM: Message edited by: MovieStuff ]</font>

[mcarter4121]

One sound program that adjusts audio in tenths of a degree is Gold Wave. Premiere won't.

[rollemfilm]

quote from Roger: "If the control track is really messed up, you might even hear some "wow" on the audio"... this to me is unacceptable. maybe TBC has nothing to do with recording speed but it does aid in sound quality. why record bad audio even though it's in sync.

[MovieStuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by rollemfilm:
maybe TBC has nothing to do with recording speed but it does aid in sound quality</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. The TBC does nothing to aid in preserving sound quality or regulating playback speed of any video device. A TBC works exactly like I described and does not do anything to regulate the sound playback at all. A Time Base Corrector affects only video frames, not audio.

If you use a standard non-edit type of video deck for playback, it will compare the tape pulses with an on-board crystal to establish proper play back speed. This will act just like a self-resolving Nagra. An edit type deck will do the same thing UNLESS you feed a composite video signal into the video input, in which case the tape will "chase" the incoming signal and stay in synch with that, instead. In either case, a TBC is not needed nor would it do anything to help the situation.

Please explain how you are using a TBC (which processes video frames only) to regulate the playback rate of the audio, since the TBC can not regulate the playback rate of any mechanical device, such as a tape deck. Perhaps you are thinking of something else.

[PolecatDigital]

I may not know a whole lot about Super 8, but I do know about video, (Been doing video for about 5 years), and Roger is right about the TBC, it just corrects the timing on the video. Nothing to do with the sound.

[rollemfilm]

roger: i am just responding to what you said about not having a video signal comming in on an older vcr. if a tape deck without tbc will cause distortions in the picture, and that affects the audio in the form of wow, and tbc corrects this, then it does help the audio. you made the statement about this. besides that, i have tried recording audio on an older deck without a video signal, and it does not work well.